It’s Official…Rob Bell Has Finally Tipped His Hand and Shown Us What Gospel He Truly Believes…
Jul 22nd, 2009 | By Douglas K. Adu-Boahen | Category: UncategorizedA good few months, back before I got a self-hosted blog, I wrote a three-part series entitled “Rob Bell Speaks Out of Both Sides of His Mouth”. That 3-part series, especially the second part, is probably the most read piece I have ever written in two years of blogging. You can read that series in its entirely here, here and…here.
Many people said I was being unfair, uncharitable and unloving in saying that Bell was a false teacher in the Body. Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news (and what you’re about to watch is bad news…) but it’s now official that Bell is preaching another gospel. Now, before all the lovers of Rob Bell storm my blog and say, “W-w-well, that was a long time ago” – I’m not buying that. According to the timestamp on this video, this was uploaded March 19th of this year – so it would stand to reason that this would be the view of Bell currently.
Alright…enough talk – here is Bell’s “gospel”:
For a clear, helpful rebuttal of Bell’s “gospel”, check out this episode of Fighting for the Faith:
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I'm itching to get home so I can view (and hear) this video. It is sooooooooooo surprising that Bell might say something that doesn't agree with Scripture.
The guy seems to be quite full of himself.
Bell says "I am the gospel."
John Piper says "God is the gospel."
I'm with Piper.
Yup, Piper is right – GOD is the Gospel.
1. Mithraism was synchretic religion that absorbed elements from other faiths. It didn't even arrive in the Roman Empire by the time Christ was born, not even until the middle of the second century. Therefore, it is post-NT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism#Mithraism_…
2. Julius Caesar didn't say he was the Son of God. He said he was the immortal Jupiter himself. It is speculated that there might have been a messianic element to Imperial Roman cult, but it came from Greece, in result of the Jewish diaspora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_(ancie… . Therefore, it is post-OT.
3. The titles 'Domine' (lord), 'Divus' (god), and 'Soter' (saviour) were indeed attributed to several Caesar. Specially Nero, who attempted to force Christians to salute him this way, or else die. [check the link above]
4. Rob Bell is dead. Pray for his repentence, for he knows not Jesus and Jesus does not know him. Beg our Lord that he may reveal his Gospel to him.
*was a synchretic
I agree this guy is coocoo for coco puffs. However, I know that I haven't done as much to demonstrate God's love by helping people as I should have. I've been convicted of that (not because of this dude's video) and want to not only talk about God's love but show it to people. I want to share with folks and help where I can and pray that opens up even more opportunities to call people to repent of their sins and turn to Jesus as their Lord because they'll see His love in me.
Its crazy how much of a connection there is between Rob Bell and Zeitgeist. Check out fighting for the faith on The Zeitgeist Movie. Also check out marxism as well.
Can anyone tell me when this video clip was first made?
From what I understand, this video has been in circulation for a good few years now, but the video was uploaded to GoodNewsAccordingTo.com on March 20, 2009.
I am interested to confirm whether the comments of the video clip STILL reflect the views of Rob Bell. I'm pretty sure they do – just want to make sure there has been no modification in his opinions before I quote.
Well, Bell makes similar points in an article with Christianity Today from this past April – I suppose he’d still holding those views.
My ears are itching. Anyone else?
@ Stan, I was going to comment the exact same words but you beat me to it
But I thought I would say something else pertinent to the video.
This false gospel presented by Bell is a perfect example of the need for discernment. Not everything Bell says is false. Therefore, his message can be deceiving much like all false teachers and Satan himself. He takes important points of history, Bible, and practice and blurs the lines just enough that they are almost true but damn.
Counterfeit Gospels will always have a resemblance to the true gospel for counterfeit truths require a base from which to distort. My dear brothers and sister, "test all things; hold fast to what is good and abstain from all forms of evil!"
I also wrote a post on this topic that can be found @ http://stephenwillcox.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/wh…
Blessings,
Stephen
Good points, Bro. Stephen…
What a great video… thanks for sharing. Rob Bell has a real gift in communicating powerful truths simply and effectively. I have been blessed today!
The only problem with Rob Bell's real gift in communicating, is that he can make powerful lies sound so much like truth that it results in strong delusion for many.
Thank you for this…. I am exposing the same things and getting the same flak from friends who say I'm being "judgemental and unkind"… and these are Christians.
I'm sorry…what exactly is he saying that is anti-biblical? Can anyone actually point to something specifically? This presentation of the gospel seems to be guilty only of presenting the truth of the gospel in fresh and beautiful words.
Minus being completely man-centred, omitting the following:
- Man as a sinner, both by nature and by practice
- God is infinitely holy and is repulsed of the sinfulness of man
- God, in His mercy, sends His Son into the world as a penal substitutionary sacrifice for sin
- Man is called to repent and believe in Christ and His work on the Cross
- If man does not repent and believe, in the words of John 3:30, the "wrath of God" abides on such a one
But hey, those are all non-essentials, right? (And that was he didn't mention in that video- I could have months of blogging material dealing with the factual inadequacies of what he said, but the MP3 player link I posted does that…I'd encourage you to listen to that in its entirety)
The truth of the Gospel is dead simple, really:
Christ was born, Christ lived the perfect live, Christ died a substitutionary death and Christ's work on the Cross has purchased salvation for those who repent and place faith in Him for their eternal salvation.
Bell convolutes that, and turns the Gospel into the "welfare program to end all welfare programs", which isn't necessarily bad…it just isn't the Gospel message.
Since you asked me a question
Why isn't your energy focused on convincing me of what you believe, instead of what is wrong with another's teaching.
Well, feel free to trawl through two whole years of material – you'll find a lot of positive presentations of my views on all manner of Biblical subjects. Feel free to judge me – after all, two years worth of material is practically non-existent…
Who needs to be specific with Bell? Read more than two pages of any of his books and you should see enough heresy to convince you, unless of course you are a Bell disciple.
Clever.
I have an idea. Instead of complaining about the subjects addressed by Douglas how about you just get a life!
I felt compelled to post again links to your previous series, as well as this post, on Bell.
Your material needs to be heard/read!
Stan,
quite a tactful reply, no?
actually, bob asks a valid question.
say what you will about rob bell – but perhaps some here have 'plank eye syndrome?' (matt. 7:5)
Douglas – would you mind telling us – in word form – what your problem is with this Rob Bell video?
Christ is a 'life-giving Spirit' (1 Cor. 15:45) within believers – thus we are His Temple.
we are the 'church' the ekklesia'… not a building – but people of God – the indwelling of His Holy Spirit – thus the 'good news' is in us.
1 Cor. 15:49 says we bear the likeness of Jesus.
1 Cor. 12:12 – we are the life-bearing body of Christ. Christ is the head – in heaven – we are the body – on earth.
if Jesus is the Gospel (good news) and Jesus is within me – then the Gospel is in me.
Christ followers are the gospel personified to all people. our words and actions gospel (so long as we are in line with His teaching).
if i am a new creation in Christ (1 Cor 5:15-17) – then Christ is within me. if Christ is within me and Christ is the gospel – then I am the Gospel – personified on earth to be the gospel to all. through word and deed. (james 2:14-26)
1 Cor. 12:27: now you are the body of Christ.
and Paul, after sharing how the 'church' (i.e.: people) are the Body of Christ – gives foundation to how that body should live: ch. 13 shows the most excellent way – LOVE.
Eph. 5:23 / Col. 1:18 / Col. 2:19: Christ is head, church (i.e. 'people') is the body.
did he not say to the disciples – you will do exceedingly and abundantly more than i have done?
Eph. 3:20: we can do so much more because of the power within us. is that not 'good news' or 'gospel'?
Rom. 2:16 + Rom. 16:25 – Paul referrers to the gospel as 'my gospel'.
We are the gospel. it's not that difficult.
some here are missing Bell's point.
There is a difference between saying that we are the living out the Gospel and saying that we ARE the Gospel. The Gospel is an authoritative message which transcends any human personality – save Jesus Christ, the center of that Gospel…
"broken, flawed, vulnerable people like you and me are invited to be the hands of feet of a Jesus who loves us exactly as we are and yet loves us way to much to let us stay that way."
it looks like Bell is saying that we are the body of Christ. exactly what Paul says.
later Bell says "you are the good news." if we are living for Christ – word and deed – we ARE good news exemplified.
The Gospel is God. The Gospel is us. it's not an either or – it's both. God is with us – in us. Christ is not with us – but the Spirit is. We are then an example of the Good news.
i think you are reading in to this video a bit much to presume that Bell is meaning that the Gospel is ours and not God's. the latter half of the video talks about the Ressurection – and our need for a savior, Jesus. he does not say we are saved by our selves – but through Jesus and thus by accepting Jesus' invitation we can be made whole – and when we follow, we are the Gospel to those we meet. God in us – through us.
what Bell says is that when we act in a Christ-like mannor – others will want to be a part of what we are a part of. 9 min in to the video: "God hasn't given up on the world. that is the Gospel… the good news… the tomb is empty and a giant ressurection rescue is underway… and you and i can be a part of it… Jesus is saving me from my sins, pride, etc… rescued from brokeness… because God wants to put it all back together… it starts with the awareness that we and the world need saving…"
it is hard for me to imagine why that isn't good enough for you. but you and others are entitled to your opinions.
here's the thing- i imagine you and guys like stan and others are blogging about these things because you are hoping to convince people of the truth. but screaming and shouting doesn't work well when you are trying to convince someone. people are more inclined to listen if they are listened to, as well.
now you seem to be a reputable guy but others who regularly post here have blogs that may not be so respectable – simply because of name calling and a lack of gentleness. below is what i posted on stan's blog that you asked about on stan's blog – but he deleted it.
if you want to convince people of your beliefs – gentleness and respect will go along way. 21st century people do not respond well to men (symbolically) standing on soap boxes on street corners preaching 'their' gospel. now one could respond and say 'people should listen.' but people don't and wont. a different approach to preaching the gospel – so long as the gospel is preached – is not bad.
here is what was posted on stan's blog:
"the gospel is the good news that God
again with the name calling.
clown. nice. you gonna justify that by saying the Bell is actually a clown?
you can say all that you want – but your approach is not Christ like.
even if you are/were right – you are not acting in a Christ like manner.
1 peter 3:15 "with gentleness and respect…"
1 Thessalonians 4:11-12 ~you should be concerned with winning the respect of outsiders…
matthew 11:29 "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
Christ = gentle + humble.
your approach is not so gentle nor humble.
i over stepped my bounds on stan;'s blog and for that i am sorry – but i stand behind my comments that speaking truth with gentleness and respect is the Jesus way. Jesus never called the Pharisees 'clowns' or 'clueless wonders'. nor did he ever make fun of their appearance.
you guys don't like Bell. we get it. say so in respectable ways and maybe more poeple will listen. right now you may only preaching to your choir.
thanks for your time
Firstly, Stan has been like family to me in the short time I have known him. I don't take too kindly to veiled insults on his character.
Secondly, consider who the outsiders Paul referred to are in 1 Thess 4:11-12 – UNBELIEVERS. I will be blunt – I am not warning the unbeliever to stay away from Bell, my audience is the Church – those whom Christ suffered the wrath of God for, those whom the Father elected from the foundation of the world, they are my audience and I love them. However, the well of that love runs dry against false teachers, just as with the Saviour (Matt 7:15-23; 23:1-29, Luke 11:37-54) and the Apostle Paul (Romans 16:17-18, 2 Cor 11:1-4, Gal 1:6-9, 5:12). We are gentle with God's sheep, and we are firm with the Devil's wolves, and I think Bell is one of those sheep.
Moving onto Bell's own presentation, I ask you to compare his presentation with 1 Cor 15:1-5 and see if you find any parity between the two. The Cross is absent as he sidesteps it to get to the Resurrection, and even then he turns the focus away from eternity to "let's fix this world here and now". I'm sorry, but that is a redefinition of Christ's mission. Am I against social work and the ministry of mercy – absolutely not! I grew up in an inner-city area with drug dealers and drug addicts, so I know firsthand that these people need our help, but let's be blunt once more – getting a drug addict clean only for him to die and spend eternity separated from God in conscious eternal torment is a wasted effort unless he hears the Gospel of God's free and full salvation to all who repent and believe in Christ.
Bell would be content that we simply did one and abandon the other. We don't do good things and then call THAT the Gospel – no, the Gospel is an objective message that Christ has lived the perfect life, died, was buried and was resurrected and that by responding to that atoning work in repentance and faith, one can know the pardoning love of God and the assurance of sins forgiven. Can't say I've heard that in 2 years of Bell's sermons, or in Sex God, or in Velvet Elvis, or in the NOOMAs…
in regards to stan's character – i apologized for going to far.
a few comments above, though, stan tells Bob to 'get a life.'
on his blog he writes: comments are subject to deletion and/or ridicule.
seriously? ridicule? he's called people names and deleted a comment of mine that gave clarity to the Boston Globe story about Bell (this was before he gave me 4 questions to answer). why delete it? unless you don't want people to see/read a different perspective. Bob asked a valid question and his reply is 'get a life?' if you think that is the Jesus-way, then you must be reading a diff. gospel.
i'll restate what i said above: i over stepped my bounds on stan;'s blog and for that i am sorry – but i stand behind my comments that speaking truth with gentleness and respect is the Jesus way. Jesus never called the Pharisees 'clowns' or 'clueless wonders'. nor did he ever make fun of their appearance.
you guys don't like Bell. we get it. say so in respectable ways and maybe more poeple will listen. right now you may only preaching to your choir.
if one is trying to warn Bell's flock – one should practice listening to others if one expects others to listen to them. there doesn't seem to be much discussion or listening when it comes to these debates (on many blogs, anyway – not necessarily saying that about your blog). right now, if i were a member of Bell's flock (by the way, i am not) why would i want to listen to you when you called my 'pastor' a clueless wonder'? childish name calling says more about your character than Bell's character and doesn't advance the kingdom.
you have every right to share your opinions. but we must all watch our approach if we want all people to listen.
i do want you to know, however, that i appreciate our discussion right now.
in regards to 1 Corinthians 15:1-5: i have heard Bell preach the cross, the sacrifice of jesus, etc. just because every nooma isn't about that doesn't mean he doesn't think the cross is important. Jesus taught us many things. obviously, the cross/need for a savior is most important – but he taught many other things as well.
in the video above he says "Jesus is saving me from my sins". in regards to the Nooma videos – i dont think they need to be deeply theological. i look at them as starters for deeper discussion among beleivers. it's a 10 minute video. they are brief. people don't get saved through 10 minute videos by any one man. it's through relationships that we are given chances to show our genuineness and love and thus spread the Gospel. we have to ask ourselves this: do we want people saved and does it end there? or do we want people saved so they can join in the church community/body of Christ?
It seems you're giving Bell a pass on his heretical teachings because he says some things correctly here and there. It not surprising that he says true things occasionally since even the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons do the same.
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
Personally I agree with Bell on this one folks….if we could all become the "gospel" (Good news, dare I say it God's Spell) to others then we may just be the disciples Jesus intended us to be.
"Preach Always, When Necessary Use Words" (St Francis of Assisi)
Everybody here needs to see this conversation. Tim has brought up incredible points that prove rob bell correct, yet you, douglas, are so wrapped up in your own opinion that rob bell is wrong, you fail to see what he is actually saying. Is that what we are called to do as Christians, have opinions and reject everything that shakes us up a little? The purpose of the nooma videos is to make us think and possibly challenge our faith. I really do pray that you, douglas, can be challenged. You know, there is a rob bell bandwagon, but there is also a rob bell hater bandwagon. I pray that we can all get along and formulate new thoughts and ideas in a loving positive matter.
Funny – the Apostles went around, performing Spirit-empowered miracles, and yet all they did was use words – Acts 2:14-39, 3:11-26, 4:8-12 to name but a few. To say one should use words "when necessary" makes a mockery of the NT record…
No we are called to hold like a pitbull on a T-bone steak to the teaching of Scripture and reject anything which isn't in Scripture. You can formulate new thoughts all the day long to your heart's discontent, but unless they are grounded in Scripture, who really cares?
Believe me I know what it is to be theologically challenged – I'm a former Pentecostal who left that movement at the age of 16 for the Reformed faith, but on what basis are we to be challenged? Some whimsical idea about new or open-minded…or the time-tested truths of Scripture. I know where I place my feet – do you?
I am sorry but I am confused on how one goes about preaching the gospel without words. The gospel is news…Good News. The definition of news is "the report of a event." How does one go on to report the past historical event of Jesus life, death, and resurrection without words? This is absurdity! Please don't waste your time trying to be the gospel, you're not! Jesus is the gospel. And although you may strive to mirror or live like Jesus t help the medicine go down so to speak you cannot nor should strive to be the gospel, because that is blasphemy. Yes live godly lives! Yes, love your neighbor, but in none of this are you being or doing gospel. Not even preaching is the gospel, preaching is the means of informing people of the gospel like a newscaster speaks to relay the news….Not being the news.
So if Francis of Assisi said this (which I don't know if he did) He is wrong. I'll stand with the Bible.
I find in all of this "be the Gospel" talk, something very interesting: a warped definition of Gospel…
stephen, you're so silly.
which means more: saying the words 'i love you' or showing someone how you love them?'
faith without deeds is dead.
1 cor. 13: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. gotta show it. can't just say it.
and let me get this straight? St. Francis of Assisi – a man who devoted himself to serving the poor is WRONG and Stephen and Douglas are RIGHT?
if only St. Francis had just PREACHED the Word and not lived it. those poor people would have been much better off.
so Douglas – you hold to the scriptures like a pitbull on a T bone steak – but you neglect 1 Cor. 13? <1>2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
haven't seen much love for Rob Bell around here. you don't have to agree with him – but according to scripture you must love him – or you are nothing. ouch.
seems like some here are only picking and choosing which scriptures to 'hold on' to.
oh and what about all of those people who lived before the printing press? no written word to cling to. but the ACTS church shows us action – not just words. read Acts 2:42-47. faith in action, baby. LIVING Gospel.
would you imply that they had it all wrong, Douglas? trying to live like Christ and show the love of Christ to the masses… preaching with words and action… not just WORDS.
Douglas, you're young. perhaps there is still a few things for you to learn? or do you claim to have all the answers? embrace these discussions. LISTEN. that is what makes communication effective.
just my 2 cents.
Tim,
your example applies little to what I am saying because you keep assuming you are the gospel in your pursuit of proving that very point.
The answer to your question is obvious. Both. It is not "either or" but a "both and" answer. But the fallacy in your point is it is not our actions or words that are the gospel! It is God's actions of love and words in the person of Jesus Christ. You are too me centered to get this. You keep inserting me into the equation. The gospel is "no me and all of Jesus" as soon as the gospel relies upon sinful wicked men it is no longer any good news. For to hope in man is as reliable as to trust in an airplane ability to fly me to heaven (that is not sky heaven but eternal dwelling place of God heaven). It simply won't happen. Our hope is not in man. Our hope is in God!
So yes, words are useless if they don't match the reality of what that person is doing. But you must remember it is not our actions that save it is Jesus' actions that save. No amount of you clothing naked people will save people from their sins and no amount of feeding starving people will get them into a right standing with God. Only Jesus' life death and resurrection can do that. And they must believe!
P.S.
please don't misunderstand me to say we as Christian should be indifferent to clothing the naked, feeding the starved, and loving our neighbor as ourselves. We should! We are commanded to. For we are to love as our heavenly Father, Our elder brother Jesus, and our Counselor the Holy Spirit have us. But they alone have the unique actions that are able to save! We merely strive to love to be a shadow to what they have done and accomplished. Not to improve their work.
What is the context of 1 Cor 13? Just a simple exegetical question…
Tim,
are you even going to respond to my comments or just make arbitrary argument Tim. I don't think you are either being fair or charitable with my points. Which I might add is not very loving. Lots of people devote their lives to helping poor people, but if it is not unto the glory of God it is still sin. And no Tim, if Francis only loved them by helping their temporary needs and didn't present the gospel to them, that is, tell them who Jesus is and what He did to save sinners from hell and to a perfect relationship with God, then those poor people got clothes on their back and food in their bellies and made friend for a lifetime and now are spending an eternity in hell under the wrath of God. How is that loving? To know what people need to get to heaven and withhold from them.
Tim, that is what you are teaching and I hate it! let me be frank, people are dieing. Their lives are like the grass. They are like the wind. But they will be resurrected on the last day to eternal life or to eternal damnation. Which is more important in the grand scheme?
Again, I am not dismissing loving people with providing for their temporary needs. But their is a greater way of loving them and that is presenting them the good news which will provide a perfect life in eternity. It is "both and" not "either or."
Did you even read my comments? Did you read my P.S. where i directly dealt with this? Come one Tim, at least deal with what I saying not creating false dichotomies.
Firstly, where do you get the idea that I hate Rob Bell. He may be saved – I don't know his heart any more than anyone else – but I have serious concerns about his fidelity to the Gospel – the MESSAGE that Christ has come, lived the life we could not live and died the death that we could not die. I hear NOTHING of this in Bell's books, sermons, videos (like the one above), etc. All I hear is "here and now" – no idea of eternity and when I read the New Testament, here and now pales in comparison to eternity.
Yes, the church in Acts did not just preach – yes they held all such things in common and yes, they lived lives impacted by the Gospel…but what did they do every time to proclaim that Gospel? They PREACHED. Nowhere in Acts does it say that their actions drew people to Christ – it was the preaching that "cut them to the heart" (Acts 2:37), that caused the people to be "marvelled" and at the Apostles and to "take knowledge of them" (Acts 3:13). Paul attributes the salvation of the church at Corinth NOT to actions done by him, but to "the foolishness of preaching" (1 Cor 1:21). I'm sorry but your depreciation for preaching is rather worrying in light of the New Testament's emphasis on teaching and preaching.
As to your comment about the people prior to Gutenberg's press in Mainz, Germany and Caxton's Westminster Press here in England, I'm sorry but that is an inane argument. I didn't say that God can only work in 100% literate societies – I am saying that the means God has appointed and self-commissioned in the pages of Holy Writ is preaching. Yes, our lives as reflections of the Gospel – not the Gospel itself – can attract people, but that will not save anyone. It is when the message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified is proclaimed, and only then, does the Spirit of God work to draw people to the Saviour.
i published the St Francis comment before you posted yours.
<1where do you get the idea that I hate Rob Bell>
i didn't say you hated him – but there hasn't been much love shown his way. Love is patient. love is kind. not a lot of kindness in the post or especially in the comments. call it guilty by association. some of your fiends who blog or post here have spread hate speech about Bell. you called him a clueless wonder.
i cited the 1 cor. 13 verse 2 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
you can say a whole lot – but if you lack love – you and the message is nothing.
one can spread the good news – can preach Gospel through Kerygma: (greek) Proclamation & Diakonia: (greek) Active Service. to quote James K. Matthews – former bishop in the United Methodist Church: "It would appear that the Church goes about being this mission in the world in two ways: first, by articulating through verbal signs the gospel message (kerygma) and, secondly, by performing acts of concerned, involved service (diakonia). Yet these two aspects of the outreach of the Church, the word and the act, cannot finally be distinguished. There is abundant New Testament evidence of their utter interpretation. Together and never separately, they constitute the proclamation of the Church in and to the world."
remember – Jesus told us to make disciples, not get people saved. we can't just focus on 'saving souls'. we should focus on helping develop spiritual maturity in the lives of believers – making disciples who are willing to follow Christ.
i agree.
i was just meaning to stress words and actions MUST coincide when preaching Gospel.
i'll quote again what i posted above: one can spread the good news – can preach Gospel through Kerygma: (greek) Proclamation & Diakonia: (greek) Active Service. to quote James K. Matthews – former bishop in the United Methodist Church: "It would appear that the Church goes about being this mission in the world in two ways: first, by articulating through verbal signs the gospel message (kerygma) and, secondly, by performing acts of concerned, involved service (diakonia). Yet these two aspects of the outreach of the Church, the word and the act, cannot finally be distinguished. There is abundant New Testament evidence of their utter interpretation. Together and never separately, they constitute the proclamation of the Church in and to the world."
Yes, I called him a clueless wonder and considering his understanding of the Gospel is shockingly bad for a so-called preacher, I still call him a clueless wonder.
Love at the expense of truth is not love – it's sentimentalism. I naturally am the type who is very conscious of the need to maintain wonderful friendships, but I have cut off many friendships and relationships – some bordering on romantic, even – for the sake of the truth. Love and truth go together, not love at the expense of truth.
Thirdly, I am all for mercy ministry, but mercy ministry will never make the Gospel in all its difficulty (and it is a difficult message) an easier message for people to accept. We do such things as a proof of the Gospel's power in our lives, but I disagree firmly with Bishop Matthews that acts of service are on a par with the proclamation of the Gospel. Were that the case, then Medicins Sans Frontierés, the Red Cross/Crescent and various non-Christian organisations are also bringing in souls to the Kingdom.
Finally, (and I will be blunt, I find your making assertions about my philosophy of ministry rather asinine), where do you get the idea that I am not committed to discipleship. I believe in discipleship – but not to creates doers of social justice alone, but in the words of Jesus:
Finally, re: your comment that Jesus told us to make disciples, not get people saved. Allow me to use an illustration:
I just started my Bachelors of Arts degree in Journalism. Before I could actually attend any classes and say I was a Journalism student in earnest, I had to enrol. If I didn't enrol, I wasn't a student at the university. Same thing with the faith – you cannot begin discipleship if you never repented and believed the Gospel. You are honestly comparing two different apples – one is red and delicious, the other makes iPods and Macbooks…
i 'm guessing you don't like the book of James then, no? faith and action. hand and hand. can't have one w/out the other. what good would Jesus' message have been if he proclaimed one thing and lived another.
my comment about discipleship was not aimed at you or anybody. just making the point that we have a responsibility to make disciples. too many 'christians' focus solely on getting people saved – but when new converts are saved – they have no one there to lead them and show them the Way.
jesus told peter to feed his sheep. feeding is action.
it is rather foolish to think you can proclaim something and not live it. proclaiming without living it makes one a used car salesman.
i assume based on your testimony that you are living what you are preaching. good. therefore your actions (hopefully) back up what you preach. that should be the model for all 'followers of the Way.'
that is all i am saying. sadly, many christians say one thing but do not back it up with action. they pick and choose which scriptures to follow and neglect key teachings of Jesus.
Firstly, please cut it out with making these blind assertions. If you actually read my Statement of Beliefs page, you'd know I affirm the Book of James as complete and inspired Scripture, so to say I don't like it is rather asinine.
Faith and action go hand in hand – but James is not discussing the proclamation of the Gospel. I am not saying as Christians, we don't lead lives worthy of the calling to which we have been called, but we should clear here. Those lives will save NO-ONE – the Gospel is what saves, and that is a message. The message is paramount here. Consider yourself banned from commenting on my blog because this is going nowhere and clearly you have your agenda and I have mine. All the best.
I'm really not sure what the problem is here.
CHRIST is in YOU. Our purpose on this earth is 2-fold: To Know God & To Make Him Known.
God = love. To know God is to know love.
To make Him known, is to show God, show love, to others.
In the Old Testament, in order to see God, people would have to go to the temple/the holy of holies.
Now, we are the temple. Christ is in us. People see God through us. [although sadly, many times they don't]
I believe Rob Bell is simply saying that. That .. We Are The Gospel. We show people the good news. We show them God's love. God has chosen to use people to reveal Himself.
The message the Gospel brings is in no way centered around us. But we are the Gospel in that … when people look at us, they either see the Gospel, see Jesus, through us …. or they don't.
Romans 10:17 says, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." We MUST share the Gospel in words…our actions give us a legitimacy and a platform from which to speak. The Gospel is not us; but Lord willing we will be an example to people to look to Christ. I believe Paul shared the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 when it says, "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.."
Salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselfs; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." We CANNOT enjoy eternity with God unless we BELIEVE in Jesus Christ as our Savior!!!! Jesus said in John 3:18, "He who believes in Him (Jesus) is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." What Rob Bell teaches is a false Gospel and Paul said in Galatians 1:8 says, "But even if we, or any angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."
Search the scriptures and you will find NO trace of this concept. This isn't biblical.
Actions speak louder than words. Read a little about St. Francis and you'll see a man who's actions did so much more for the Kingdom of God than words ever could.
St. Francis – a Roman Catholic who went so far as to preach to animals – did more for the Kingdom…than the God-ordained means of preaching. Riiiiiiight…
he cared for the sick and the poor; took care of lepers; set an example of charity in Italy; devoted himself to a life of poverty and simplicity; proclaimed the Gospel through the preaching of repentance; preached & converted muslims; etc.
Francis was known for preaching and serving. i think both are 'God-ordained', no?
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
~ Jesus (from Matthew 25 NIV.)
Doing and Proclaiming go hand and hand.
There is absolutely NO PART OF THIS THAT IS HERETICAL! This is a beautiful representation of the Gospel. I feel like many of you guys are hanging on the very last phrase and saying "Oh look! He says WE are the Gospel and its all about us and not Jesus." Did you even listen to things Bell said? We are to bring the good news/Gospel to the world! Rob Bell is a brilliant teacher. No heresy here folks…
Did you listen to the accompanying MP3 at all or like so many people, are you just defending the name of Rob Bell because he says things which sound great? Let me ask some Biblical questions here:
- Where was the mention of sin?
- Where was the mention of the wrath of God, poured out on his Son?
- Where is the imputation of Christ's righteousness upon all who believe in Christ Jesus?
- Where was Scripture in any of that presenation?
His history alone in that video was poor, speak less of his abhorrent theology which is so man-centred, you can even call it theology (God-talk)
Folks I was not trying to overturn the theological apple cart here with my referance to St Francis of Assisi. I am not Catholic and dont really know what he did or didnt do, preach or didnt preach to etc. However perhaps I should have preached to gospel to my unrepentant Jack Russell more often in the hopes that she would stop "sinning" by digging up the back garden…LOL
Today people have a preconcieved idea of what a christian is. If I claim to be one folks assume that we are good people, who don't drink, swear or cheat on our spouses. The gospel has become one of sin management etc.
In the NT it was the unbelievers that called people of the way christians or little christs. It was never a noun adopted by those disciples themselves. I think if we could live the way Bell proposes we may just become a little more "worthy" of being called such by those looking on at our lives, and that mabey the noun could also become a verb by doing such.
Once again please accept my apology if I offended any…
Remeber its the things that we think that are right that devide us!
Shalom
It is a sad thing to see fellow christians believing the words that stream from Rob Bells mouth. I pray that those that listen to this man speak will repent of theyre idolotry. I say Idolotry because that is what is is, it is worshipping yourself as God, and not God as God. If saved, the Lord has given us the gift of salvation, it was a gift, we did not earn it through good works. If a christian, you understand that christ first justified us through his death burial and ressurection, and as a result of our justification, he regenerated us, giving us new hearts, and new minds.
The Gospel is not about what we do for God, the Gospel is about what God has done for us. Its about the Love that our God has for us, but it NEVER ends with us, it ends with HIM. He LOVES us for HIS GLORY! So when we go into the world to proclaim the word of God, and the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, I pray that we remember, it is not enough to just love. We as humans dont know what love means, we need to see what God means when he says love. And everytime there is a pattern, God-Love-God. God loves why?? FOR HIS GLORY. So that we may see HIS GLORY. So why should we love someone? Not for ourselves! But for GODS GLORY!! Im praying for those mislead by Rob Bell and other false teachers.
Excellent video. Thanks for posting.
OK first thing is first…as christians are we not called to be christ like? Yes we are. We are called to live for Christ and to follow his example. Yes…Jesus is the Gospel…i dont think anyone here would deny that, but what Bell is saying is that by us acting like Christ, we are acting like the Gospel. We can be living, breathing walking examples of the good news that Jesus Christ is alive, and is here to save lives. We can spread the gospel, not just through our words but also through our actions…
I know that many of my friends see God/Jesus in me through the way that i live other than how i tell them about God. They dont like when i talk about God so the best way i can show them the gospel is through my actions…i can only be the gospel to them, be the shining light.
I am 100% open to talk about this…!!! so please reply to me!!
Also…people lets just talk about it…lets not argue and call each other for what we are or not…the only thing that truely matters is wther or not we have made a decision to live for Jesus, if we have asked him in to our lives and are living for him, doing the best we can do for him…does the rest really matter?!
Yes I think we are all missing the boat somewhat here and that Rob Bell is simply highlighting that we are the carriers of the gospel, and I would concede that his use of words at the end is a bit stupid. However, to all you guys who are only concerned about lambasting the guy, I suggest that you wise the bap and realise that he is an excellent at communicating to us things in God's word that we may previously not grasped so well.
Even demons believe there is one God. So what if Bell says something right every once in a while?!
He's still spewing raw sewage from his mouth.
Matty,
thanks for your honesty. i would agree that the gospel can be shared in both words and action as well. i don't think anyone would argue with that.
matty – you said: "by us acting like Christ, we are acting like the Gospel. We can be living, breathing walking examples of the good news that Jesus Christ is alive, and is here to save lives."
does anyone one here disagree with this? if so, why? if anyone wants to talk about it, that'd be great!
it behooves me that some would rather shout and not listen than have real, honest dialogue. in the end, love wins. we shouldn't fear, genuine, honest conversation where both sides listen to each other. that is what real community is all about.
some may not like what Bell says or how he says it – but it is not raw sewage that is coming out of his mouth – that is just opinion – not truth. i don't know why people get so worked up over him.
Acting LIKE something and BEING something are two different things.
i love Matty….and agree with MTB
such as?!
Well, I'll let Stan give his own full answer, but here's what got me about his presentation – unlike the Apostles of old, there was no mention of Christ's sinless life, atoning death, no call to repentance from dead works which cannot save and a call to believe in God's Son as the only way of salvation from sin and the punishment for sin, the wrath of God poured out on the wilfully rebellious sinner in hell.
That alone makes his humanitarian message – which in and of itself is not inherently wrong – deeply disturbing to call the Gospel. It clothes and feeds a man now, but leaves a man naked and hungry in terms of where it really matters – eternity
Bell neglects the gospel on a regular basis and treats essentials of the faith in a trivial manner.
I will give Bell this: his disciples are faithful to him. I wish they were as faithful to God's word.
you mind sharing your examples of how he neglects the gospel? do you live with him in community? you see him on a regular basis treating essentials of the faith in trivial manners?
Bob (if that's even your name), I'm not going to do your legwork for you. You could start by reading what Douglas has documented in several of his posts. You could also check out a few posts at my blog. You could also check out PyroManiacs or Challies or any of a thousand or so other sites. You could read his books.
Why the anonymity? It seems many of Bell's disciples post in a cowardly, anonymous fashion. Why is that?
i went back and watched this and wrote down some thoughts…
this video isn't just about salvation – it's about what happens after salvation.
it's also 11 minutes. let us remember that. 11 minutes. 11 minutes does not equal the whole of a man, his beliefs or his theology. is that not safe to say?
on one level this video is about the church – and the churches responsibility.
which is better? an empire who rules with an iron fist or the way of Jesus which calls and invites people to change the very world we live in – "through loving acts of compassion and generosity?"
@ 6:52 Bell refers to God whom raised Jesus from the dead.
this video was made for the church – the body of believers who already know Christ was sinless, atoned for us. people whom have already been called to believe in "God's son as the only way of salvation."
he speaks of choice – follow Christ or follow Ceaser. he shows that following Christ vs. following governments or the world, is better.
"for them, the Gospel was an invitation to a whole new way of life."
he acknowledges the Holy Spirit's presence in the church.
God – through the church – makes a way for people to live out faith in community. that is not contrary to the gospel of Jesus. Jesus made a way for the disciples to live out their faith in community. On the cross, he makes a way for all of us to do the same.
this video is about being a living, breathing, 'little Christ' to the world. not spewing hate but love. many christians – you all know – spew hate… not love. those that do live a gospel contrary to Jesus. there seems to be some undertones that refer to this.
@ 9:11 – he says the Gospel is the good news that God hasn't given up on the world. that the tomb was empty and a giant resurrection rescue is under way and that you and me can be apart of it. Jesus is saving me, from my sins, from my mistakes, my pride, despair, brokenness, etc."
Bell said that. how does anyone find that contrary to the gospel of Jesus? that is as much a part of the gospel as any part. salvation through death. resurrection. saved from sin. that's Gospel.
@10 min, Bell talks about how God works within us so that we might know that we are sinners and are in need of salvation. we need rescued. he mentions that over and over. what is salvation – if not a rescue?
at the end – it just talks about how the church is the living, flesh and blood of the gospel. We are the vessels of which the gospel message of Jesus is given to the world.
could it be more plain and simple? @ 10:24 "you are invited to be the hands and feet of Jesus." the church is invited to be Jesus to the world. a shining light. a light that shines Jesus within us…
for me – i see the Resurrection all around me. God has used many special people who have been vessels of God's loving kindness… who showed me the way. words and actions that inspired me… they spoke messages from God to me that in turn helped shape me and make me who i am today, in Christ.
that is the Gospel message of Christ lived out. plain and simple.
honestly, it appears that so many are just hung up on the last sentence – "you are the Gospel." context. please – keep things in context.
watch the whole entire 11 minute video and see the big picture of what a simple 11 minute video is trying to present.
if anyone expects this video – or any other 11 minute video to be salvation to people, then perhaps the boat has been missed. this video could be a catalyst. to bring about conversations… about God, Jesus, his plan for humanity and His plan for the church. that is where ministers of the gospel – you and me and anyone else who loyally follows and lives Jesus – come in to present the salvation story and needs to a world that is dying… in need of life. in need of rescue.
i look forward to discussion, if anyone wants. i do not look forward to, nor do i think it is fair to offer jabs that humiliate or shame people with differing opinions or the 'you are wrong and i am right' comments either.
thanks for reading. i am praying for healthy discussion.
blessings.
Well, I don’t live in Grand Rapids, neither do I care to. London is enough hustle and bustle for me. I do subscribe to his podcasts, I’ve watched every NOOMA I can get my hands on and read Velvet Elvis, Sex God and Jesus Wants to Save Christians, so while I may not be an authority, I think I know enough to get by…
Well, when I hear “the Gospel”, I expect to hear God’s answer to man’s problem of sin. I expect to hear about the Cross of Christ, the holiness of God, Christ – y’know the themes an eight-year-old with a Bible could easily discern.
Quite frankly, this world is hurtling towards a date with a God who will judge it in righteousness (Acts 17:30-31). As I said in one of the comments, Bell’s ideas in and of themselves are not that bad. But let’s just clarify something – they’re not the Gospel.
The Gospel is that man is infinitely sinful in the sight of a holy God, who will punish sin and sinners, however in His mercy, He sent His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to die in the stead of billions who would repent and believe in Him and the work of redemption. We are called to herald THAT message to all the nations for the salvation of God’s people to His glory and for their enjoyment.
Bell seems to dismiss that implicitly in his continual propounding of a message which is heavy on here and now, yet seems to neglect eternity. As I said in response to another comment – Bell’s message would feed, clothe and empower a man in this life – yet will send him hungry, naked and weak into eternity
This life is a vapour – we’d do well to remember that…
you seem to imply that a man's thoughts should only be the Gospel. Jesus taught us many things, in addition to Gospel message of repentance.
yes, we should preach repentance. then what? Yes we should repent. then what?
Douglas said: "The Gospel is that man is infinitely sinful in the sight of a holy God, who will punish sin and sinners, however in His mercy, He sent His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to die in the stead of billions who would repent and believe in Him and the work of redemption. We are called to herald THAT message to all the nations for the salvation of God's people to His glory and for their enjoyment."
when we herald that message – we are the Gospel – living proof of the good news. our story and God's story intertwined, thanks be to God for giving the gift of life through the death/resurrection of Jesus.
then once that message is proclaimed… then what? do we retreat to our homes to wallow in grace? do we stand on street corners and condemn and boast?
or do we answer the call: to walk like Jesus (1 John 2:6). to love. tend to widows and the poor. to pray. to give. to practice self denial, solace, forgiveness. to make disciples. to build community. to share in community.
is proclaiming Gospel all there is to this faith that we share in Christ Jesus?
i appreciate and respect the various opinions that have been posted here but Douglas – i am having trouble with your comment you've made repeatedly that Bell's message "would feed, clothe and empower a man in this life – yet will send him hungry, naked and weak into eternity"
Douglas, you don't know if that is true or not. you can speculate – but you do not know.
God knows. not you. not me.
I've also read the books. heard the podcasts. i have also talked with members of his church. and i see and hear a completely different message than what you hear. before anyone passes judgement – maybe they should enter into conversation with and build relationships with people who are members of that congregation. and i'm not talking about faux relationships where there is a lot of talking but no listening… no attmept at understanding.
i could tell you personal stories, example of people being the church – living, breathing, repenting, serving, loving, giving people. but what's the point. some, it seems, would rather paint with broad strokes. that is too bad. Those that like to bash and criticize, I doubt they'd be able to be fair. could they really look at things through different lenses? i could be wrong. but perhaps a little humility would be useful for all of us who have posted here.
the thing is, you are not the judge. you are not living in community nor do you know the hearts of Bell or his parishioners. let God be God. and you be you. and i'll be me. Stan can be stan. Matty can be Matty. etc.
I think our time could be put to use in better ways.
note: i am not trying to be combative. please understand that. sometimes it is hard via a message board to communicate in a way that doesn't seem combative. like i've said before, i care about real, honest, genuine conversations.
thanks.
Discernment is lacking in the church today.
a big problem is that christians are getting so hot and bothered about theology when really we should be forgetting about things like this and praying for a dying world.
Yes some people say this, and some people say that…well folks i want to ask you this? Who here has the right to throw the first stone?
a challenge for you…can you imagine if we forgot about who said what and when and as "the church" (christians all over the world) just prayed instead of fighting or disagreeing with one another?
Just a crazy thought that maybe, just maybe…Jesus wouldnt be getting caught up in these twisting of words, but would be busy telling people of the gospel through being a living example of the gospel…
Funny – Jesus, in the Gospels, engages with theology on a deep level. Jesus was not a humanitarian…
Bro. Stan,
I'm closing the comments on this thread. This is actually boring now. Bell says this is the GOSPEL – the Gospel is a very specific calling. Clearly MTB, Matty and all the Bell-lovers don't quite see how specific it is. I'm done.
Matty,
That was one of the most ignorant comments I've ever seen.
[...] today, I closed off the comments over at a blog post I wrote in relation to Rob Bell. I’ve only ever done that once or twice in my almost three years’ blogging, but I felt [...]